Here's one I just got through working on....
This is a WEIRD system. 100 % roof-top air is sucked into a water-based air scrubber ( we haven't got to the fan yet, so the pressure here is negative ). There is a pre-filter ( 90% pleat ) and steam pre-heat coil ( for winter only, not in effect right now ), both of which I'll ignore. :~)
After the water-scrubber, the air is sucked into the fan, and then expelled into ~ 10 running linear feet of solid charcoal, HEPA, and other bio-active mixed-media filtration, in an 18" x 18 " plenum. Gross static pressure reaches 18" water column due to restriction of water-scrubber and filtration, but I'll ignore that, as final WC is ~ 1", therefore I take all heat of compression / expansion to be a net wash for my purposes when I then get to the heat/cool segments at a still-strong but normal static.
After the above, there is a 2 ton R22 AC unit to 'pre-cool' the roof air. There is then a 5 ton Carrier R22 residential scroll AC, and then a 4KW electric element.
Final target of the system is 70 F air at 50 % - 60 % RH, year round, at 500 CFM. Yes, I said 500 CFM.
I just got through tuning and repairing the system such that it holds 70 F +/- 0.5, and 55 % RH +/- 5 %. I hope to get that RH a little tighter next week, tweaking the Faircloth multiplier down just a bit.
Controls are as follows, in equipment sequence : Steam pre-heat is on a Penn OA stat for winter pre-heat only. Scrubber sump temp is whatever evaporation and OA and makeup temp drive it to, no control.
2 ton unit runs continuous, no control.
5 ton unit has a variable hot gas bypass, which is controlled by pneumatics, which sense RH only. RH sensor ( standard 3 - 15 lb) goes to a Barber-Coleman prop-band controller, then to a Faircloth variable multiplier, with final pneumatic output on the HG bypass being 0-80 lbs pneumatic control pressure, and minimum HG bypass pressure set at ~ 60 lbs suction to the 5 ton unit, to prevent ice. TXV is set to provide minimum compressor cooling when in maximum bypass ( Andy, you're just gonna have to let me slide on this one :~) ).
Electric reheat is under DDC PID control, for sensible heat only
( thermistor input ). There is
I corrected some initial problems with this 'rig', such as : The
low-level pneumatics were being run at 35 lbs ( instead of 20 ). The high
level pneumatics were being run at 120 lb ( instead of 80 ). The RH sensor
was _BETWEEN_ the 5 ton coil and the reheat element, 6 inches from the evap
coil, and routinely had liquid water dripping off it ( once the water falls
So anyway, on to my question...
My intuition told me that 5 ton was hugely oversized for
Clean air supply system - sample load
If setpoint = 70 F , 50 % RH
If input air = 85 F, 85 % RH
Volume is ~ 500 CFM at all times
Input = 85 F, 85 % RH = 50 btu / lb, @ 14.25 cu.ft. / lb = 105,623 BTU/HR
because :
1 / 14.25 cu. ft. / lb = .0701... lb / cu. ft.
0701 lb / cu. ft. x 500 CFM = 35 lb / minute
35 lb / minute x 50 BTU / lb = 1754 BTU / minute
1754 BTU / minute x 60 = 105,623 BTU / HR enthalpy of input air
MINUS
Ouput = 70 F, 50 % RH = 25 btu / lb, @ 13 .5 cu.ft. / lb = 55,555 BTU/HR
because :
1 / 13.5 cu. ft. / lb = .0740... lb / cu. ft.
0740 lb / cu. ft. x 500 CFM = 37 lb / minute
37 lb / minute x 25 BTU / lb = 925 BTU / minute
925 BTU / minute x 60 = 55,555 BTU / HR enthalpy of output air
PLUS :
Assume : 4 KW re-heat element runs at 50 % duty cycle
to maintain sensible at 70 F, under PID control
Thus 4,000 W x 3.41 BTU / W = 13640 BTUH, x 50 % cycle = 6,820 BTU / HR
105,623 - 55,555 + 6,820 = 56,888 BTU / HR total enthalpic load
56,888 / 12,000 = 4.74 TON total combined sensible and latent load.
Therefor, 5 ton ( plus capacity from the prior 2 ton ) is rock and roll city.
I eagerly await the input of those who do this stuff for a living.
You'll have to excuse me now, I think I'm getting a headache. :~)
Paul
Oops...
I just realized a basic error I made by adding the reheat to
total load. My actual proposed total load should be 4.17 ton, not 4.74.
Please continue to educate me from there. :~)
Paul
I don't have my psych chart with me, and don't know what the altitude/ barometric
pressure is for this discussion, so I will not address the math in this post as much
as some of the basic questions and statements.
1. Allowances for fan heat need to be included. If the fan motor is in the air
stream the motor heat must also be added. (The purpose of the 2 ton cooling coil may
have been to counteract the fan heat???). It may be useful to verify the airflow and
take entering and leaving air temperatures.
2. Unless there is active control of the air flow rate, the assumption that the
system is flowing 500 cfm probably is not true. The actual air flow rate will be
determined by the fan speed, the flow rate will vary depending on the inlet
conditions (barometric pressure and air density).
3. Are we controlling the room or the supply air to the 70 F and 50-60% RH design
criteria. What are the estimated minimum and maximum sensible and latent room heat
gains?
Based on the results of tuning and repairs, it looks as though you have addressed
most of the issues relative to cooling. There may be issues in the future related to
the heating and/or intermittent weather conditions:
1. What are the steam coil control parameters?
2. Does the air scrubber run continuously (24 hours per day 365 days per year)? Do
you know its saturation efficiency? Can you measure the entering dry bulb and
wetbulb conditions as well as the leaving dry bulb?
3. Does the reheat coil have SCR control, or are their multiple stages?
Please excuse my ignorance - What is a Faircloth variable multiplier?
Dave Munro
In article
~~>1. Allowances for fan heat need to be included. If the fan motor is in the air
stream the motor heat must also be added.
Very true, but the fan motor is not in the airstream. I think I
can ignore gain from bearing friction.
~~>2. Unless there is active control of the air flow rate, the assumption that the
system is flowing 500 cfm probably is not true.
A good point I had missed. Very true. Also, the scientist types
who use the test chambers fed by this system have balancing dampers under
their control. 500 is the design spec for max load. I really have no idea
how close to that they run, so I take that as my max load.
~~>3. Are we controlling the room or the supply air to the 70 F and 50-60% RH design
criteria. What are the estimated minimum and maximum sensible and latent room heat
gains?
Supply air at those numbers in the supply duct. There are no
gains ( at least that I need to deal with ) in the test chambers, because
this is a single pass, 100 % roof air system. BTW, it has a special evap
for extra latent bias.
~~>Based on the results of tuning and repairs, it looks as though you have addressed
most of the issues relative to cooling. There may be issues in the future related to
the heating and/or intermittent weather conditions:
Yeh, she barcharts for a 5 day period now at +/- 0.5 F, +/- 5%, each
centered on set point. Acceptable to the scientists using the chambers, so
I can live with it.
> What are the steam coil control parameters?
Don't know, it's for winter anti-freeze pre-heat only, so I haven't
looked at it yet. Roughly, I think it maintains a minimum 45F intake air.
>2. Does the air scrubber run continuously (24 hours per day 365 days per year)? Do
Yes
>you know its saturation efficiency?
NO, and a major question in my mind. I can only SWAG it at 85 -95 %
>Can you measure the entering dry bulb and
wetbulb conditions as well as the leaving dry bulb?
Around the system, yes, but not around the scrubber by itself.
~~>3. Does the reheat coil have SCR control, or are their multiple stages?
Yes, SCR on a PID controller. That seems to work very well. The
problem is no interaction between it and the RH control. Each one just
tries to do it's own thing, regardless of the other.
~~>Please excuse my ignorance - What is a Faircloth variable multiplier?
Your ignorance is vastly exceeded by my own. :~) The Faircloth
is a pneumatic device that multiplies it's control input by a set amount.
I think ( not sure ) this is also called a ratio relay by some other brands.
The difficult thing in the RH control is that the sensor is 3-15,
then the Barber-Coleman is 0-20 output into the Faircloth, wich takes
that 0 -20 and multiplies it proportionaly ( as a throttling range kind of
thing ) to become 0 - 80 lbs output to the control head of the HG bypass.
This whole rig series is REAL sensitive, and oscillates a bit
no matter what I do.
Given this system being a 'gross enthalpy' kind of thing, with
no 'room' loads and no recirculation of any air, does that help look at
the loads ?
Thanks, Dave, for looking at this one ! :~)
Paul
Theory and normal design practice is to add fan heat for 'compressing' the air, plus
the motor heat if the motor is in the air stream. The fan heat, not including motor
heat can be estimated by the following formula:
Q=V*P/N/6356; Q=Fan heat, bhp
V=Air flow rate, scfm
P=Fan total pressure, inches W.C.
N=Fan efficiency
The fan efficiency is normally in the range of 50-75% for typical
applications (this isn't a normal application).
Assuming 50% fan efficiency:
Q=500*18/.5/6356 bhp
Q=2.8 bhp * (2545 Btuh/bhp)
Q=7,200 Btuh
You may be able to find out the fan efficiency from the fan manufacturer. It would
be easier to measure motor voltage and current, assume appropriate values for power
factor and motor efficiency, and estimate the fan heat.
>~~>2. Unless there is active control of the air flow rate, the assumption that the
system is flowing 500 cfm probably is not true.
> A good point I had missed. Very true. Also, the scientist types
who use the test chambers fed by this system have balancing dampers under
their control. 500 is the design spec for max load. I really have no idea
how close to that they run, so I take that as my max load.
Assuming that the air balancer is setting fan speed based on the room air
conditions, and a need for precision, I would use the density of air at the room
design conditions of 70 degrees and 55% RH (and what ever altitude the project is
at) to determine the pounds of air, and use the same pounds of air per minute for
each of the psychometric processes.
>3. Are we controlling the room or the supply air to the 70 F and 50-60% RH design
criteria. What are the estimated minimum and maximum sensible and latent room heat
gains?
> Supply air at those numbers in the supply duct. There are no
gains ( at least that I need to deal with ) in the test chambers, because
this is a single pass, 100 % roof air system. BTW, it has a special evap
for extra latent bias.
Unless the bar chart recorder and temperature sensors used to control the cooling
coil and reheat coil are in the duct, I would tend to think that we care controlling
the room to 70 F and 55% RH.
>~~>1. What are the steam coil control parameters?
> Don't know, it's for winter anti-freeze pre-heat only, so I haven't
looked at it yet. Roughly, I think it maintains a minimum 45F intake air.
The steam coil would need to heat the air up much hotter than 45 degrees in order
for the air scrubber to add moisture. Depending on the outdoor design criteria for
minimum air temperature and humidity and the saturation efficiency of the air
scrubber, it may be necessary to heat the air to 95 F or more.
>2. Does the air scrubber run continuously (24 hours per day 365 days per year)? Do
> Yes
>~~>you know its saturation efficiency?
> NO, and a major question in my mind. I can only SWAG it at 85 -95 %
>~~>Can you measure the entering dry bulb and
wetbulb conditions as well as the leaving dry bulb?
> Around the system, yes, but not around the scrubber by itself.
It may be appropriate in the future to measure outdoor dry bulb temperature and
relative humidity, leaving dry bulb temperature, estimate the outdoor wet bulb and
saturation efficiency. Let's differ this until later, if and when you need it.
>Paul
Uh!...a picture of this one would be helpful. Here is a quick looksy.
When I do load calcs (it's been a while), I use the ASHRAE Load Calculation Manual
or computer progams based on it. Your system has the following loads:
1. Outside air from 85/85% [45 BTU/Lb] to room condition 70/50% [25.5 BTU/Lb]
Use BTU/hr = 4.5 (CFM) (Delta h) = 44,000 BTU/hr (3.7 tons)
(Actually your washer saturates the air to 81/99%,constant wet bulb, but the
enthalpy is about the same)
2. Fan Heat from Table 4, Page 26.10 of 1993 ASHRAE Fundamentals
2 HP motor (if this is size) = 6,440 BTU/Hr (motor in/ fan in)
3. Reheat Load, if it is a constant. [BTU/hr = 1.1 (CFM) (delta temp)]
3. Room Load - You've got to define these; lights, people, equipment, skin, etc.
Add all of these up for your cooling load. With your supply airflow fixed at 500
CFM, your sensible load will define your supply air temperature.
Your outside air load uses 3.7 tons of your 7 tons on a design day.
Hope this helps.
pjm@nando.net (paul milligan) wrote:
>~~>1. Allowances for fan heat need to be included. If the fan motor is in the air
stream the motor heat must also be added.
> Very true, but the fan motor is not in the airstream. I think I
can ignore gain from bearing friction.
This is a not-uncommon fallacy. You _CAN'T IGNORE_ the fan heat,
especially at the static pressures discussed. It matters little where
the fan -motor- is located. The fan -heat- will show up in the
airstream no matter what.
Key point: A rotating fan wheel or pump impeller is pretty much the
definition of "paddle wheel work" heating up a control volume,
straight from Thermo 101. The fluid (air, water, salad dressing, you
pick it) stream is heated by the wheel regardless of the location of
motor.
The only effect of the motor location (in or out of the airstream) is
where the heat created by motor inefficiency goes. If the motor is not
in the air stream, the motor inefficiency heats up the room where the
motor sits instread of the air stream. If this room is a return air
plenum for an air handling unit (a common situation), this motor
inefficiency heat becomes a "return air" load.
With some attempts at transmitting equations:
Motor kW = Fan kW / motor efficiency
-in shorthand-
kWm = kWf / nm
Motor in airstream = > Air stream heated at the rate of (kWm)
Motor out of airstream => Air stream heated at the rate of (kWf)
Room where where motor sits
heated at rate of (kWm-kWf), or [kWm X (1 - nm)]
All that said, I haven't tried to run your calcs out (my net
connection is at home and all my texts and handbooks are at the
office). However, I bet you can find the source of a lot of missing
BTU's in the equation if you take the above to heart.
James J. Riticher, P.E. (Jim)
From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
From: Dave Munro
From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Dave Munro
From: Dave Munro
From: Kirk Wilson
From: jjr@atlanta.com (Jim Riticher)
> Dave Munro
Environmental Design International
jjr@atlanta.com
Back to Interesting Threads Index